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Julie Dawson
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 4452
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 Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:08 pm Post subject: I don't think this conversation is done |
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http://www.lulu.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96183
I have been using BOTH Lulu and Createspace for over a year. I like having the flexibilty of using both, and that flexibility has allowed me to increase my profits over the last year while also expanding my marketing reach.
Now all of the sudden we aren't allowed to use both, even though I have in fact been using both for over a year and have stated so repeatedly in this forum.
| Quote: | | Lulu, on behalf of you, the publisher, will be the sole source of bibliographic data on your book. Lulu will feed data to the U.S. ISBN Agency as well as to Bowker's Books In Print ® and other industry databases. The data will identify you as the publisher. |
According to my lawyer, all that says is that I agree to only use Lulu to handle sending the information to Bowkers and Books in Print. It does NOT prevent me from using other third party printers and making my own separate arrangements to sell my book. If that were true, authors would not be able to buy copies of their own books and sell them directly to bookstores. We would have to direct booksellers to Lulu.
SInce Createspace does not send ISBN data to Bowkers or Books in Print, it is not a violation of the user agreement to use CS. Amazon is not an industry database. It is a vendor. There are legally my files, and I can legally assign them to another printer to handle any vendor I chose. The only thing I agreed to was not to use duplicate POD services to feed information to Books in Print.
I have seen my profits go up substantially since I started using CS. If Lulu suddenly starts trying to strong-arm people into using one or the other, I guarantee I leave Lulu....and I take all of my business with me. I have spent thousands of dollars with this companies, not to mention the money Lulu has made off of my sales. |
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Jeff Edis
Joined: 07 Jan 2008
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Strong arm is right...
some of these so called "lulu masters" have really got tickets on themselves, too.
Lighten up people, after all, it is we the writers who are your source of income. Lose us, and your business goes arse-up. |
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Will Entrekin
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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I told you there were clauses in the Lulu ToS that were troubling in their lack of specificity and ultimately give Lulu too much power. Everyone jumped on the idea that I wanted to publish pr0n, but this is just another result of it.
And, of course, someone from Lulu will swing by to lock the topic, because "no headway is being made," and "meaningful discussion has been exhausted." |
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UVSAR
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 1495
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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Julie - your lawyer is correct, but I have to add "almost".
The three words "other industry databases" in the PBY agreement make all the difference, as Lulu could, should they want to be particularly annoying about it, argue that the Amazon site feed from Createspace is an industry database. I know one owns the other, but CS is telling a computer in another building about your book, and Lulu didn't tell CS about it in the first place. Lulu doesn't say that the biblio feeds they want to control have to be public ones.
The really cynical amongst us might remember how a certain website recently tried to pull titles listed by rival POD companies, and wonder at the coincidences... |
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Julie Dawson
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 4452
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| UVSAR wrote: | Julie - your lawyer is correct, but I have to add "almost".
The three words "other industry databases" in the PBY agreement make all the difference, as Lulu could, should they want to be particularly annoying about it, argue that the Amazon site feed from Createspace is an industry database. I know one owns the other, but CS is telling a computer in another building about your book, and Lulu didn't tell CS about it in the first place. Lulu doesn't say that the biblio feeds they want to control have to be public ones.
The really cynical amongst us might remember how a certain website recently tried to pull titles listed by rival POD companies, and wonder at the coincidences... |
Such an interpretation would be a violation of good faith laws that apply to contract in most states. Also, such an interpretation would mean that, if an author wanted to sell books to Jane Doe Book chain, the author could not sell those books directly to Jane Doe Book chain. He would have to direct Jane Doe Book chain to lulu.
Amazon is not an industry database, because it is not used by the industry. It is a private database. Lulu can no more claim exclusivity to it that they can to Jane Doe Book Chain's database. Amazon, in this case, is MY CUSTOMER. I supply Amazon with copies of MY BOOKS. Whether I chose to do that through Createspace, or go to the local printer and print copies to mail to Amazon, is completely within my legal right, and has zero bearing on the user agreement.
And if Lulu does lock this thread and refuses to discuss it, we can always take the conversation OUTSIDE of lulu... |
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Adam
Lulu Staff
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 2520
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry Julie but you are mistaken about this. Amazon is included within the bibliographic feed which is why when you buy distribution from Lulu, your book is listed there. I'm not particularly versed in the workings of Createspace, but as I understand it, listing your book a second time on Createspace would list it on Amazon again which I believe it part of the complication that prevent us from allowing books with PBY to be listed in this manner.
Because this is obviously a concern among certain members of our community, I will allow this thread to remain open IF the discussion can remain civil. One thing in particular I would like to understand about your views however is, if you purchased a PBY package on Lulu which essentially provides the same listing in Amazon, what is the big deal?
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Dawson Vosburg
Joined: 02 Jan 2008
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| Adam wrote: | I'm sorry Julie but you are mistaken about this. Amazon is included within the bibliographic feed which is why when you buy distribution from Lulu, your book is listed there. I'm not particularly versed in the workings of Createspace, but as I understand it, listing your book a second time on Createspace would list it on Amazon again which I believe it part of the complication that prevent us from allowing books with PBY to be listed in this manner.
Because this is obviously a concern among certain members of our community, I will allow this thread to remain open IF the discussion can remain civil. One thing in particular I would like to understand about your views however is, if you purchased a PBY package on Lulu which essentially provides the same listing in Amazon, what is the big deal? |
Oh! That can solve everything!
If Amazon is the only place in which the ToS problem arises, you have the option as a CreateSpace member to not have the title on Amazon. |
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Ron Miller
Lulu Power Poster
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 4096
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| Will Entrekin wrote: | I <i>told</i> you there were clauses in the Lulu ToS that were troubling in their lack of specificity and ultimately give Lulu too much power. Everyone jumped on the idea that I wanted to publish pr0n, but this is just another result of it.
And, of course, someone from Lulu will swing by to lock the topic, because "no headway is being made," and "meaningful discussion has been exhausted." |
I didn't particularly care for that draconian tactic either...especially the declaration that the topic itself was to be permanently out-of-bounds. I'd hate to think that Lulu is so sensitive to criticism of its policies---however polite and rational the discussion may be---as to ban it outright.
R |
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Julie Dawson
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 4452
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| Adam wrote: | I'm sorry Julie but you are mistaken about this. Amazon is included within the bibliographic feed which is why when you buy distribution from Lulu, your book is listed there. I'm not particularly versed in the workings of Createspace, but as I understand it, listing your book a second time on Createspace would list it on Amazon again which I believe it part of the complication that prevent us from allowing books with PBY to be listed in this manner.
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No, you are mistaken.
Amazon is a bookseller. They get listings of books available for purchase via Books in Print. As far as I know, Lulu does not directly feed data to Amazon, not process sales directly from Amazon. All of that is handled via Ingrams, which is why Lulu has time and time again stated that they cannot give us details on sales exclusively from Amazon. Lulu never fills those orders.
Amazon is a vendor, not an industry database. Other booksellers don't order books wholesale from Amazon. Amazon sells to end consumers. They are no more a bibliographical feed that any other end-consumer vendor. Industry databases, to a reasonable person, or distributors like Ingrams, Bertrams, Baker & Taylor, etc that sell to vendors, not the vendors themselves.
Second, CS will not double list a book. The Amazon database keeps the original bibliographical data provided by Books in Print. All CS does is fill the orders. Amazon sends the order to CS instead of LSI. Again, I've been working with them for over a year, I know how it works. The bibliographical listing has zero impact on whom Amazon decides to place the order with. You can no more legally prevent me from using Createspace than you can from using a local printer and handling distribution myself.
Where the confusion would come into play is if you try to force people to not use CS. Because then I can take my files, remove the ISBN #, and just upload them to CS using their ISBN. In which case, there would be two listings of the same book, but with different ISBNs. As a point of fact, if Lulu's only concern is to prevent duplication, Lulu should ENCOURAGE the use of the same ISBN.
| Quote: | | One thing in particular I would like to understand about your views however is, if you purchased a PBY package on Lulu which essentially provides the same listing in Amazon, what is the big deal? |
For me, hundreds of dollars in profits.
Sample Title:
The Grandmaster, retail price $10.59
My cost to buy copies at Createspace: $2.15
My cost to buy copies at Lulu: $6.45
My profit per sale via Amazon using CS: $4.20
My profit per sale via Amazon using Lulu: $1.50
Do you need more illustrations, or is that crystal clear?
I sell one, maybe two copies of this book via the Lulu distribution channel. I sell 5-10 each month via Amazon. Now if you expect me to chose between Lulu and Amazon, which one do you expect me to use? |
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Adam
Lulu Staff
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 2520
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| Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Julie,
Lulu is not preventing you from using CreateSpace, but what we are saying in the PBY agreement is that you cannot have two entities managing the bibliographic feed associated to the same ISBN at the same time. Insofar as Lulu manages the data listed on Amazon, listing your book on Amazon through CreateSpace as well contradicts the PBY agreement.
With the ISBN you own under PBY, for so long as your book is listed on Lulu, we are managing the data feed that inevitably lists your book on Amazon. Now, if you decide that this is not the best deal, under PBY, you can decide to retire your book from Lulu and go elsewhere with your ISBN. Now, I acknowledge that's not a win/win situation either because you will lose the additional distribution of your title that we provide, but that is an option.
What I want to make clear is that you are under no obligation to deal exclusively with Lulu if you believe that is not the best option for you. However, as long as you decide to publish with us, we reserve the rights to manage the bibliographic feeds that's associated with your PBY title.
-Adam
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